No Holds Barred: John Perretti on A Life Of Concussions

(Photo of Adrien Broner and Khabib Allakhverdiev by Stephanie Trapp/Showtime. Photo of Lucas Matthysse and Viktor Postol by Tom Hogan/Golden Boy Promotions.)

On this edition of No Holds Barred, host Eddie Goldman once again spoke with lifelong martial artist, former UFC and Battlecade Extreme Fighting matchmaker, TV commentator, and our senior correspondent, John Perretti.

We spoke with him by Skype Tuesday Japan time (Monday New York time).

John Perretti's fighting career mainly focused on kickboxing, where he took "a lot of damage," and also included competition in karate and taekwondo, as well as rigorous training in grappling, judo, and wrestling, he said. This resulted in "16 verifiable concussions" and a few more "accidental" ones along the way.

After he had retired as an active fighter but still was training and coaching, at about the age of 40 he started having cognitive problems.

He illustrated what this meant for him: "For myself, that was the real beginning of not knowing where I was, even though I was probably 50-60 feet down a driveway in the Hampton Bays, and getting lost, I mean physically lost, and having to pull the car over and not know where I was for an hour or two."

As time went on, he said, having scar tissue on the brain and other brain injuries made him susceptible to other diseases. And he knows many fighters and ex-fighters with similar problems.

What upsets him to no end today is seeing parents encourage and even steer their children into training and competing in sports where inflicting head trauma resulting in brain injuries is common and often legal within the sport's rules.

"Parents have to take responsibility," he argued, when it comes to having their children participate in sports like rugby, American football, boxing, and MMA.

We discussed how many parents are attached to a "macho" culture which ignores health and safety, why he recommends only sports which are "low impact" and have a relatively low chance of head trauma, how even non-contact sports today are becoming "really physical," and much, much more.

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No Holds Barred: John Perretti on Ethics, Combat Sports, Injuries, and Weightlifting

On this edition of No Holds Barred, host Eddie Goldman once again spoke with the ex-pugilist, lifelong martial artist, former UFC and Battlecade Extreme Fighting matchmaker, TV commentator, and our senior correspondent, John Perretti.

Following up on our previous episode of No Holds Barred with Stephan Kesting of Grapplearts, on MMA, brain damage, concussions, and CTE, we continued to explore these issues. We began with the ethical considerations about participating in and supporting combat sports with striking, where head injuries and brain trauma are necessary results of way those sports are conducted.

We spoke with John Perretti by phone Monday.

"I can keep it short and simple: If you get hit, you get hurt," he said. "And that's not a belief. That's not something that is just beloved of me. That's a fact."

He stated, as he has said before, that he is no longer interested in watching fighters "getting battered," even though he was one of the founders of modern MMA, came up with the basic framework of rounds, gloves, and weight classes used today, and even was using the term "mixed martial arts" as far back as the 1970s.

While he does watch some boxing and other dangerous sports like American football at times, he has lost interest in MMA.

"I just do not care to watch that anymore," he said. MMA, he added, with the growing emphasis on striking both standing and on the ground, has become "a lot more dangerous than it was" when many of us had argued that MMA was safer than boxing. And the main appeal of MMA these days, especially in the U.S., he said, is to those who are "attracted to the violence." It is turning more into a cult or even a "religion," he added.

In fact, partially due to his influence, his two teenage sons, Lucca and Enzo Perretti, no longer train in martial arts or play football, but instead focus on Olympic weightlifting. Both are among the top-ranked weightlifters in the U.S. in their age groups and weight classes.

Although weightlifting is widely practiced and respected, the Olympic weightlifting program is far from reaching its potential as a popular sport.

"Olympic weightlifting is really something that has been neglected," he said. While other sports are plagued with injuries about which we are understanding more and more each day, he said that according to medical studies, Olympic weightlifting has "the lowest injury rate of any sport in the United States of America."

Besides discussing the future of Olympic weightlifting in the U.S. and what it needs to do to popularize itself (hint: look at wrestling's continued failures), we discussed the potential for various styles of grappling and wrestling to grow, what the future holds for combat sports where there is head trauma, why he does not like to watch martial arts films, the great dangers to kids training in MMA, and much, much more.

You can play or download No Holds Barred here and here. If one link doesn't work, please try another.

No Holds Barred is also available on mobile phones and iPads through Stitcher.

Also, No Holds Barred is available through iTunes.

The No Holds Barred theme song is called "The Heist", which is also available on iTunes by composer Ian Snow.

No Holds Barred is free to listen to and is sponsored by:

ONE Fighting Championship. ONE FC is Asia's largest and most prestigious mixed martial arts event. ONE FC features the best Asian fighters and has initiated the ONE Asia Partnership Network, which includes most of the major MMA promotions and MMA gyms in Asia. For more information, go to their web site, at ONEFC.com.

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American Top Team. Whether you're a beginner or a champion, train with the champions in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, wrestling, grappling, and mixed martial arts at American Top Team. Check out their web site at http://americantopteam.com/.

No Holds Barred: John Perretti On Why He Has Moved On

On this edition of No Holds Barred, host Eddie Goldman once again spoke with the ex-pugilist, lifelong martial artist, former UFC and Battlecade Extreme Fighting matchmaker, TV commentator, and our senior correspondent, John Perretti.

Despite having come up with the term "mixed martial arts" and being a pioneer and one of the founders of modern MMA, John Perretti is no longer involved in the sport. Nor does he even watch it, either on TV or live, although he does sometimes keep up with other combat sports like boxing, kickboxing, sumo, and wrestling.

"It just didn't interest me," he said in our interview, recorded by Skype this past week on Tuesday. "The whole thing just had devolved into something I had no interest in."

We discussed his disillusionment with a sport in which he had such a key role in creating. He explained how he finds most MMA in the USA "abysmal" and "unwatchable"; how his relationship with the sport has ended similarly to how personal or romantic relationships end; how he "quit" and was never fired from his position as UFC matchmaker; why he considers MMA "not creative anymore"; and the dangers of head trauma and CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy) in MMA and other sports.

When we discussed grappling, he said he wished he had started his groundbreaking professional grappling show, The Contenders, before he had started Extreme Fighting. The Contenders had just one event, in October 1997, after Extreme Fighting, which ran from 1995 to 1997, had gone out of business. What would combat sports history have been like if he had done that?

Besides training his sons in weightlifting - they are both at the top of their weight classes in their age groups in the USA - he plans to open a gym next year in Japan when he relocates there full-time.

And we also asked a broader question from all this: If MMA founders like John, Rorion Gracie, Bob Meyrowitz, Donald Zuckerman, and others are all no longer involved in the sport and have moved on, what does this say about the long-term viability of MMA?

You can play or download No Holds Barred here and here. If one link doesn't work, please try another.

No Holds Barred is also available on mobile phones and iPads through Stitcher.

Also, No Holds Barred is available through iTunes.

The No Holds Barred theme song is called "The Heist", which is also available on iTunes by composer Ian Snow.

No Holds Barred is free to listen to and is sponsored by:

ONE Fighting Championship. ONE FC is Asia's largest and most prestigious mixed martial arts event. ONE FC features the best Asian fighters and has initiated the ONE Asia Partnership Network, which includes most of the major MMA promotions and MMA gyms in Asia. For more information, go to their web site, at ONEFC.com.

Beezid.com - Penny Auctions. Your #1 source for exciting auction shopping and outstanding deals on just about anything! Top rated, most trusted auction site online. Where do you shop? Beezid.com - Penny Auctions.

American Top Team. Whether you're a beginner or a champion, train with the champions in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, wrestling, grappling, and mixed martial arts at American Top Team. Check out their web site at http://americantopteam.com/.

The First Annual Liberty Bell Classic East Coast King of Catch Tournament, organized by the North American Catch Wrestling Association in conjunction with Scientific Wrestling. This catch wrestling tournament will take place Saturday, August 31, 2013, at the Klein JCC, 10100 Jamison Ave., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19116. No points! No politics! Only submissions and pins win! For more information, go to http://nacwa.weebly.com.

Fifth Avenue

I usually ate breakfast at a place my mother ate when she was in her twenties before going to work as a legal secretary, (her shorthand was amazing to behold right up till the end). It was called Eisenberg’s Deli, on the west side of Fifth Avenue in the morning shade of the Flatiron Building. It was across from the park where my dogs would run wild during snow storms to chase rats that were driven out of their hiding places in the wire garbage “cans” to escape not all that fast in deep snow, kinda like reindeer, leaving blood trails as the dogs would kill one and bound off to another.

The award-winning English Bull Terrier, Teagan Clive, did not care at all if it was bitten -- its sole finishing hold was to crush skulls, and drag and wag its tail with animated glee while lining them up in the powder. The longer-legged pit, Twombly, had an advantage when navigating drifts and pushing heavy cans over with its massive chest and front legs. The herd instinct did not protect many rodents as it does fish on these moonlit nights, near the long ago forgotten baseball field.

Squeezing into the deli, past the cash register, at the counter stools in the long, narrow store, avoiding coats and coat hooks on your right, I only sat across from Phil, “The Hawaiian” pushing his black glasses up on his nose constantly, ordering the usual fried egg and yellow cheese on a well-toasted bialy and bitter coffee, adding your own milk. I was a regular, and even going back twenty years later and bald, I appeared there in front of him and all his famous head shots on the wall behind him. Without missing a beat, he looked up and said, “Hey kid, how have you been, the usual?” I brought my mother there once later in life to see if it was actually the place she frequented as a youngster and sure enough.

One day in 1979 at about 10:00 A.M., I am crossing 23rd Street and heading over to see Phil. A “bum” stops in front of me and says, “Hey, I know you.” I say, “No you don’t.” He, however, is really happy to see me in his torn, greasy overcoat and one or two matted dreadlocks. Again, “I know you, man.” And now he is blocking my progress, so I stop and say sarcastically, “OK, where do you know me from?” I thought this was just a soft con. He reaches out to shake my hand, all genuinely excited. I extended mine. The words came out, “You Paul Newman!” "No, I’m not," I said. Knowingly, he said, “Yes you damn well is, yessiree!” I moved to the right laughing and said again, “No, I’m not.” He put two hands up to my chest, all nervous and said really loud, “You cool hand Luke!”

I’m about two stores from shelter and he holds my sleeve and pleads with me to wait. I stop, this guy is having a big day in his mind so what else can happen. He says, “Please don’t move” So here I am abiding. “Mr. Newman, please don’t move.” He looks at me and is also looking across Fifth Avenue and it is three full lanes of traffic, and yells, “Leroy! Man, he don’t see me, Leroy!” I could just smell the coffee. “Leroy” again, and grabs me by the arm saying, “Please.” Sure enough I see a black guy in a red down jacket and I cannot really make out anything else descriptive about him, it was far. My guy says while pointing to my face, “Leroy, Leroy, who’s this?” Leroy tucks his head down a notch and looks at me for a half a second and yells back loudly, “That’s cool hand Luke!” He just grins and says, “See, I knew it!”

I lowered my eyes and shook my head side to side and gave him a buck. Only in New York.